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	<title>Comments on: Secrets of Residential Solar Lease &#8211; Sweet Deal or Disastrous Rip-off?</title>
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	<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/</link>
	<description>Exploring Sustainable Lifestyle Options at Home</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:21:52 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Tadas</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26973</link>
		<dc:creator>Tadas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jan 2012 04:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26973</guid>
		<description>Rick, I wrote a &quot;grain of salt&quot; (to accept it but to maintain a degree of skepticism about its truth), not a liar. :-) Given how enthusiastic your comment was, mentioning a city and a company name, perhaps you can see my suspicion was not unwarranted. As far as the buyer base, not everyone will want to take over a lease with the house.  After all, a lease is a liability, not an asset.  I meant Bay Area is different that the re-sale activity is better here because of the demand so you&#039;d be more likely to find the right buyer for it.  I still maintain that fundamentally, lease is by far an inferior option to simply buying the solar panels, or at least financing them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick, I wrote a &#8220;grain of salt&#8221; (to accept it but to maintain a degree of skepticism about its truth), not a liar. <img src='http://sanjosegreenhome.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Given how enthusiastic your comment was, mentioning a city and a company name, perhaps you can see my suspicion was not unwarranted. As far as the buyer base, not everyone will want to take over a lease with the house.  After all, a lease is a liability, not an asset.  I meant Bay Area is different that the re-sale activity is better here because of the demand so you&#8217;d be more likely to find the right buyer for it.  I still maintain that fundamentally, lease is by far an inferior option to simply buying the solar panels, or at least financing them.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick G</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26964</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jan 2012 17:30:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26964</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d have to advise your readers to take your less than subtle calling of me a liar with a grain of salt. I have no ties to the solar industry other than the panels above my head. Would my Denver contractors license # or my company tax ID put your worries at ease?

And as far as my reasoning when it comes to real estate, I think I&#039;m right on.  I flip houses for a living.  Which in my experience gives me a much better understanding of the average buyer than most real estate agents (which I&#039;m sure we can agree is a profession thick with silly people). Please expand on why my no cost to the buyer leased solar panels would exponentially limit my potential buyer base?

PS: &quot;Bay Area is a bit different than the rest of the country&quot;? Seriously?  I would counter that it&#039;s vastly different than almost all of the the country in regards to real estate.  I haven&#039;t had any problems selling any projects over the last few years.  Almost positive none of them went over 60 days on the market. Location, location, location...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d have to advise your readers to take your less than subtle calling of me a liar with a grain of salt. I have no ties to the solar industry other than the panels above my head. Would my Denver contractors license # or my company tax ID put your worries at ease?</p>
<p>And as far as my reasoning when it comes to real estate, I think I&#8217;m right on.  I flip houses for a living.  Which in my experience gives me a much better understanding of the average buyer than most real estate agents (which I&#8217;m sure we can agree is a profession thick with silly people). Please expand on why my no cost to the buyer leased solar panels would exponentially limit my potential buyer base?</p>
<p>PS: &#8220;Bay Area is a bit different than the rest of the country&#8221;? Seriously?  I would counter that it&#8217;s vastly different than almost all of the the country in regards to real estate.  I haven&#8217;t had any problems selling any projects over the last few years.  Almost positive none of them went over 60 days on the market. Location, location, location&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Tadas</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26947</link>
		<dc:creator>Tadas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 16:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26947</guid>
		<description>Hi Rick, thank you for your comment and insights, always good to hear from an engineer.  Granted, however, how “happy” your comment is and the professional use of SEO techniques (use of keywords) I have to advise my readers here to take your enthusiasm with a tiny grain of sea salt. :-)

As far as your reasoning about not entering into a contract with someone who does not want a lease… As a Realtor I would only add that you would be exponentially limiting your potential buyer base.  Bay Area is a bit different than the rest of the country but generally speaking, in this market, a seller will be happy to get any offer, let a alone the one they are truly happy with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Rick, thank you for your comment and insights, always good to hear from an engineer.  Granted, however, how “happy” your comment is and the professional use of SEO techniques (use of keywords) I have to advise my readers here to take your enthusiasm with a tiny grain of sea salt. <img src='http://sanjosegreenhome.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>As far as your reasoning about not entering into a contract with someone who does not want a lease… As a Realtor I would only add that you would be exponentially limiting your potential buyer base.  Bay Area is a bit different than the rest of the country but generally speaking, in this market, a seller will be happy to get any offer, let a alone the one they are truly happy with.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick G</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26944</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Jan 2012 15:10:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26944</guid>
		<description>Short answer: 

4.3 kW SolarCity system, 20 years, one time lease payment of $4,116 in Denver, CO.

Longer answer: 

As an engineer I did like all good little engineers and put together a spreadsheet taking into account all manner of initial and future costs of buying vs. leasing for the available technologies.  SolarCity won hands down.  No one was more surprised / resistant than me.  Even with a no interest loan lined up for a purchased system I still couldn&#039;t make the math work for buying.

I&#039;m also a licensed general contractor.  The crew that installed my system was on time, professional, and had well above average workmanship (in spite of weather being less than perfect during the install).  If these guys were my electricians, plumbers, etc I&#039;d gladly hire them again.  That&#039;s actually saying something as I expect a lot from my subs, as I&#039;m sure they&#039;d gladly tell you. 

Although we don&#039;t plan on selling anytime soon I did try to consider what would happen if we did have to sell the house before the end of the lease.  I came to the conclusion that no one in their right mind wouldn&#039;t just assume this lease, and if they didn&#039;t see the logic in it I would be very unlikely to enter into a contract with them anyway.  This factor will most likely vary for people depending on what the typical buyer would be for the home.  

For information&#039;s sake, I would have gone with a bigger system but had limited available area.

So, for me, in February of 2011, in Denver, CO, SolarCity was the hands down winner for putting solar on my house.

Results will vary....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Short answer: </p>
<p>4.3 kW SolarCity system, 20 years, one time lease payment of $4,116 in Denver, CO.</p>
<p>Longer answer: </p>
<p>As an engineer I did like all good little engineers and put together a spreadsheet taking into account all manner of initial and future costs of buying vs. leasing for the available technologies.  SolarCity won hands down.  No one was more surprised / resistant than me.  Even with a no interest loan lined up for a purchased system I still couldn&#8217;t make the math work for buying.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m also a licensed general contractor.  The crew that installed my system was on time, professional, and had well above average workmanship (in spite of weather being less than perfect during the install).  If these guys were my electricians, plumbers, etc I&#8217;d gladly hire them again.  That&#8217;s actually saying something as I expect a lot from my subs, as I&#8217;m sure they&#8217;d gladly tell you. </p>
<p>Although we don&#8217;t plan on selling anytime soon I did try to consider what would happen if we did have to sell the house before the end of the lease.  I came to the conclusion that no one in their right mind wouldn&#8217;t just assume this lease, and if they didn&#8217;t see the logic in it I would be very unlikely to enter into a contract with them anyway.  This factor will most likely vary for people depending on what the typical buyer would be for the home.  </p>
<p>For information&#8217;s sake, I would have gone with a bigger system but had limited available area.</p>
<p>So, for me, in February of 2011, in Denver, CO, SolarCity was the hands down winner for putting solar on my house.</p>
<p>Results will vary&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Cybordolphin</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26136</link>
		<dc:creator>Cybordolphin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 23:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26136</guid>
		<description>PV technology is ancient.  Thin film is the future.  And manufactured at .10 - .20 per watt.  Compare that to the old technology.  Also factor in paying for the same cost of installation so the installation guys don&#039;t starve.... and you are still looking at like $6,000 per home to have installed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>PV technology is ancient.  Thin film is the future.  And manufactured at .10 &#8211; .20 per watt.  Compare that to the old technology.  Also factor in paying for the same cost of installation so the installation guys don&#8217;t starve&#8230;. and you are still looking at like $6,000 per home to have installed.</p>
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		<title>By: Cybordolphin</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26135</link>
		<dc:creator>Cybordolphin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Nov 2011 22:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26135</guid>
		<description>Bottom line.... leases are a &quot;bad&quot; thing.  Notice as the rebates dry up..... we shall begin to see the manufacturers go bankrupt.  Predicted precisely.  Even after having received $500,000,000.00 from our beloved President last year.  Shame on the fools of this country.  It&#039;s because of our gullibility that shams like this even exist.  Those of you in the industry still trying to defend this shameful exploitation of ignorant folks..... shame on you.  By the way.... since this post began.... check out the cost to manufacture &quot;thin FILM&quot; technology.  Not to be mistaken for &quot;thin PANEL&quot; technology (seems those sales people in the industry continue to confuse the 2.... almost as if they are completely in the dark with the differences).  Uber cheap.... but you and I STILL cannot purchase the technology for our own personal use.  We are well below GRID PARITY now on cost.... Demand that the public is able to have access to the new technology.  All homes could be using solar on the cheap.  Really cheap.  And certainly without a lease.  The savings would pay for the solars within just a few years now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bottom line&#8230;. leases are a &#8220;bad&#8221; thing.  Notice as the rebates dry up&#8230;.. we shall begin to see the manufacturers go bankrupt.  Predicted precisely.  Even after having received $500,000,000.00 from our beloved President last year.  Shame on the fools of this country.  It&#8217;s because of our gullibility that shams like this even exist.  Those of you in the industry still trying to defend this shameful exploitation of ignorant folks&#8230;.. shame on you.  By the way&#8230;. since this post began&#8230;. check out the cost to manufacture &#8220;thin FILM&#8221; technology.  Not to be mistaken for &#8220;thin PANEL&#8221; technology (seems those sales people in the industry continue to confuse the 2&#8230;. almost as if they are completely in the dark with the differences).  Uber cheap&#8230;. but you and I STILL cannot purchase the technology for our own personal use.  We are well below GRID PARITY now on cost&#8230;. Demand that the public is able to have access to the new technology.  All homes could be using solar on the cheap.  Really cheap.  And certainly without a lease.  The savings would pay for the solars within just a few years now.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian S</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26116</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:44:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26116</guid>
		<description>I forgot to mention that APS has run out of rebate funds for this year. I suspect their rebates next year won&#039;t be as generous. I may have hit the sweet spot in timing. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I forgot to mention that APS has run out of rebate funds for this year. I suspect their rebates next year won&#8217;t be as generous. I may have hit the sweet spot in timing. <img src='http://sanjosegreenhome.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Ian S</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26115</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian S</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:42:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26115</guid>
		<description>Hi Carol. Not sure where you are located but a lot depends on what rebates and incentives there are. Here in Phoenix, my prepaid lease payment reflects an APS utility rebate of $6,900 and a state tax credit of $1,000. Then there is the federal incentive for the lessor of 30%. The latter ends at the end of December or at least changes into something a bit less generous. In any event, Perfect Power is the local firm I went with. They are one of two elite Sunpower dealers in the area.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Carol. Not sure where you are located but a lot depends on what rebates and incentives there are. Here in Phoenix, my prepaid lease payment reflects an APS utility rebate of $6,900 and a state tax credit of $1,000. Then there is the federal incentive for the lessor of 30%. The latter ends at the end of December or at least changes into something a bit less generous. In any event, Perfect Power is the local firm I went with. They are one of two elite Sunpower dealers in the area.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26112</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:44:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26112</guid>
		<description>Who did you make this agreement with, Ian?  I just got a quote for Sun Power panels from Sun Logic and the prepaid lease was $11253 for a 3220 kwh system.  It sounds like you got a good deal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Who did you make this agreement with, Ian?  I just got a quote for Sun Power panels from Sun Logic and the prepaid lease was $11253 for a 3220 kwh system.  It sounds like you got a good deal.</p>
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		<title>By: Solar Broker Jennifer</title>
		<link>http://sanjosegreenhome.com/2010/01/27/secrets-of-residential-solar-lease-sweet-deal-or-disastrous-rip-off/#comment-26084</link>
		<dc:creator>Solar Broker Jennifer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Nov 2011 00:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://sanjosegreenhome.com/?p=900#comment-26084</guid>
		<description>Wheeew!

I’d say there more anger and speculation here, than definitive answers.  And while speculation is great, as it leads to a distillation of reasoning, it nevertheless lacks critical thinking on how to resolve the debate.  That is, “how are we going to argue about the pros and cons of solar leases?

Although this blog debate is great for getting varied perspectives from many, I left feeling more confused than ever, but even more determined on how to “critically debate” the solar lease issue.

What seems to be missing from the debate are the opinions of impartial EXPERTS!  That is, Energy Consultants who do nothing but scrutinize energy production and finance schemes; it’s their job!  Yet, I could not detect a single commentary by an identified expert energy consultant or a certified accountant, except for one lone banker, who seemed to be the ONLY outside voice of reason in taking a subjective look at the debate from a macro view called simple accounting finance.  Still, not a peep about cash-flow, internal rate of return, return on investment, or payback had been spoken. Folks, let’s settle this. It’s not rocket science; it’ called “math”.  Is there third party verifier in the house?

Questions I’d Ask The Solar PV Universe About Vetting True Value:


Cash:  

Can you make more with your money in an investment of any kind? Albeit, some people may see solar PV as in investment if it saves money off the monthly utility bill, but at what percent?  For example, what if you have an astute investment adviser who can make your money 5%, 6%, 7% or more in a well managed investment? I have a friend who is a bond fund manager and he’s making his clients 10%, 15% to 20% in his investment vehicles. Don&#039;t ask me his name. (wink).

Are you prepared to part with the lost opportunity of your cold hard cash to use for other things, including emergency living reserves?  What is holding on to your cash reserves “intrinsically” worth to you?

However, cash may be the cheapest way to go when one considers that a “no money down” solar lease will cost money.  But how do you estimate this?  For example, what is the actual percentage a consumer is paying to lease the solar panels calculated over the lifetime of the lease?  Is it 7%, 8%, 9%?  Ask your accountant or an energy consultant to calculate the scenarios over the lifetime of the lease.

Lease:

A “pre-paid” lease will cost money as well, like a down payment on any durable good, but it will cost  LESS,  (percentage) than a no money down lease?   As an aside, this is why auto leases, home leases, or any type of lease instrument is widely popular; people cannot afford to, or choose not to pay cash.  It’s here, I’d like to think we’re all adult enough to understand that we live in a free market. As consumers, we will pay what the market asks until our behavior changes the current trend.

Conventional Loan or Balloon:

No matter from which lender you borrow the money, you’ll be on the hook to pay an interest rate and agree to a set of terms and conditions tied to that loan instrument.  Additionally, you’ll have debt financing tied to your name, which may hinder your ability to make other investments that are of higher priority, now or later.   So what interest rate can you obtain?  Is the rate lower than what your solar equipment will save you on your monthly utility bill, including eventually owning the equipment to produce free energy once it’s paid off?  Or, is the interest rate MORE than what you’ll save on your utility bill and what free energy you’ll produce after you pay for the equipment?  What if you run into problems down the road, and you simply can’t pay for the solar loan?  Do you have the credit score and the documented income to qualify for a loan?

PACE Program:

“Property Assessed Clean Energy” .  Where available, this is a great way to finance a solar investment, with no documented income.  But there’s no free lunch here either, as the average percentage to finance through a PACE-like program is 7%.   And really, this is okay when you stop to think about it.  I mean, do we really expect to get 0% financing on ANY of these funding schemes?

Your Personal Values:

When purchasing solar equipment, the good news is that it’s not MANDATORY; it’s FREE WILL.  So until the market volunteers to lower prices through consumer behavior, research and development and perpetuated government subsidies, it looks as if we are all working of our own volition to buy, or cry, or stay with our current utility provider.

Energy Consultants and Accountants:

“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”.   Avoid solar lease pitfalls.  Smart buyers always get their major investments third party verified by an objective professional.   Why anyone would go with what ONE equipment supplier or leasing company recommends; this kind of trust indicates a BIG red flag to the indifference of good old fashioned due diligence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wheeew!</p>
<p>I’d say there more anger and speculation here, than definitive answers.  And while speculation is great, as it leads to a distillation of reasoning, it nevertheless lacks critical thinking on how to resolve the debate.  That is, “how are we going to argue about the pros and cons of solar leases?</p>
<p>Although this blog debate is great for getting varied perspectives from many, I left feeling more confused than ever, but even more determined on how to “critically debate” the solar lease issue.</p>
<p>What seems to be missing from the debate are the opinions of impartial EXPERTS!  That is, Energy Consultants who do nothing but scrutinize energy production and finance schemes; it’s their job!  Yet, I could not detect a single commentary by an identified expert energy consultant or a certified accountant, except for one lone banker, who seemed to be the ONLY outside voice of reason in taking a subjective look at the debate from a macro view called simple accounting finance.  Still, not a peep about cash-flow, internal rate of return, return on investment, or payback had been spoken. Folks, let’s settle this. It’s not rocket science; it’ called “math”.  Is there third party verifier in the house?</p>
<p>Questions I’d Ask The Solar PV Universe About Vetting True Value:</p>
<p>Cash:  </p>
<p>Can you make more with your money in an investment of any kind? Albeit, some people may see solar PV as in investment if it saves money off the monthly utility bill, but at what percent?  For example, what if you have an astute investment adviser who can make your money 5%, 6%, 7% or more in a well managed investment? I have a friend who is a bond fund manager and he’s making his clients 10%, 15% to 20% in his investment vehicles. Don&#8217;t ask me his name. (wink).</p>
<p>Are you prepared to part with the lost opportunity of your cold hard cash to use for other things, including emergency living reserves?  What is holding on to your cash reserves “intrinsically” worth to you?</p>
<p>However, cash may be the cheapest way to go when one considers that a “no money down” solar lease will cost money.  But how do you estimate this?  For example, what is the actual percentage a consumer is paying to lease the solar panels calculated over the lifetime of the lease?  Is it 7%, 8%, 9%?  Ask your accountant or an energy consultant to calculate the scenarios over the lifetime of the lease.</p>
<p>Lease:</p>
<p>A “pre-paid” lease will cost money as well, like a down payment on any durable good, but it will cost  LESS,  (percentage) than a no money down lease?   As an aside, this is why auto leases, home leases, or any type of lease instrument is widely popular; people cannot afford to, or choose not to pay cash.  It’s here, I’d like to think we’re all adult enough to understand that we live in a free market. As consumers, we will pay what the market asks until our behavior changes the current trend.</p>
<p>Conventional Loan or Balloon:</p>
<p>No matter from which lender you borrow the money, you’ll be on the hook to pay an interest rate and agree to a set of terms and conditions tied to that loan instrument.  Additionally, you’ll have debt financing tied to your name, which may hinder your ability to make other investments that are of higher priority, now or later.   So what interest rate can you obtain?  Is the rate lower than what your solar equipment will save you on your monthly utility bill, including eventually owning the equipment to produce free energy once it’s paid off?  Or, is the interest rate MORE than what you’ll save on your utility bill and what free energy you’ll produce after you pay for the equipment?  What if you run into problems down the road, and you simply can’t pay for the solar loan?  Do you have the credit score and the documented income to qualify for a loan?</p>
<p>PACE Program:</p>
<p>“Property Assessed Clean Energy” .  Where available, this is a great way to finance a solar investment, with no documented income.  But there’s no free lunch here either, as the average percentage to finance through a PACE-like program is 7%.   And really, this is okay when you stop to think about it.  I mean, do we really expect to get 0% financing on ANY of these funding schemes?</p>
<p>Your Personal Values:</p>
<p>When purchasing solar equipment, the good news is that it’s not MANDATORY; it’s FREE WILL.  So until the market volunteers to lower prices through consumer behavior, research and development and perpetuated government subsidies, it looks as if we are all working of our own volition to buy, or cry, or stay with our current utility provider.</p>
<p>Energy Consultants and Accountants:</p>
<p>“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”.   Avoid solar lease pitfalls.  Smart buyers always get their major investments third party verified by an objective professional.   Why anyone would go with what ONE equipment supplier or leasing company recommends; this kind of trust indicates a BIG red flag to the indifference of good old fashioned due diligence.</p>
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